William Penn And His Pals | Interview | “Swami – The Complete Recordings”

William Penn & His Pals (also known as William Penn Fyve) were an incredible ’60s garage band from the Bay Area.

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Their line-up featured Mike Shapiro on lead guitar (who wrote acid-punk anthem ‘Swami’) and Gregg Rolie (of Santana/Journey fame) on organ/vocals. Mickey Hart of The Grateful Dead was also the drummer for a brief period.

Guerssen Records recently made the first ever vinyl release of their complete recordings, including their fuzzed-out ‘Swami’/’Blow My Mind’ 45 of “Pebbles” fame plus prime cut ’66 unissued recordings. A feat of garage-punk and teen-beat. Includes a color insert telling their amazing story by San Fran rock historian Bruno Ceriotti plus rare photos/memorabilia and a download card.

“If you listen to ‘Swami’ lyrics it is really a cynical put down of all the gurus et cetera of that time”

Are you excited about the recent Guerssen reissue of your recordings? How involved were you in the process and did you ever think that we will be talking about this decades later?

Michael David Shapiro: Yes I am very excited. It is tangible proof that people care about what we did way back when. It reminds me that I did something that creates enjoyment of music for the young people. Very gratifying and the income doesn’t hurt. I have been playing all the while in San Francisco and played the same music that we played back then and people loved it.

Alex of Guerssen sent me an email about 1 1/2 years ago and I accepted his proposition. I was not involved other than sending him the songs, signing a contract and doing an interview with Bruno Ceriotti. I made a CD of my music in 2000 and nothing happened. That’s when I did the first William Penn And His Pals CD so I could get some notice. Now all of this and it is amazing.

Would love it if you could speak about your background. Where did you grow up and what can you tell us about your upbringing?

I was born in San Francisco in 1948 (sounds like a good blues song, haha). Family moved to Palo Alto in 1950 and we lived on Kipling Street in the midtown area. My father was a watch repairer and did well. Both of my parents loved music and were involved in the theatre in Philadelphia. My dad, Harry, liked the hot stuff and my mother was more classically oriented, but there was always plenty of music around the house. But, I liked the country with the twangy guitar and remember listening to that on the radio when I was five or so. I asked my mom for guitar lessons and she enrolled me in a Hawaiian steel guitar class. I later got a real electric guitar teacher, Troy, who was my sister’s boyfriend. Very convenient for him, if you know what I mean. He would come over to give me a lesson then give me the keys to his car to go out and listen to his radio which was alway dialed into the Black radio station. Nuff said. I went to Cubberley High School when I was fifteen and met up with Jack Shelton and we formed The Nomads.

Was there a certain moment in your life when you knew that you wanted to become a musician?

I knew I wanted to pursue being a rock musician the night I saw The Beach Boys at local Junior College. I had already been playing guitar for five years. I remember seeing a local band playing ‘Johnny B. Goode’. I had the 45 at home and went home and picked the notes off that 45. We didn’t have a 45 player so I learned it at 33rpm. Probably made it easier.

Tell us about your very early influences and what was the original Bay Area scene like? Those early folk days had been very inspiring for later years…

The first LP I bought was The Kingston Trio. Other than that folk was not interesting to me. I later grew to love Bob Dylan though. In Palo Alto I got to know and jam with Jerry Garcia who worked at Dana Morgan’s music. I have played in bands of one sort or another since I was twelve. I was friends already with Steve Leidenthal who I played with from the very beginning. He wound up playing bass in William Penn And His Pals but first with The Nomads.

How did you originally meet members of William Penn Fyve?

They were looking for guitar and bass and auditioned The Nomads under the guise of looking for bands for the Rec Center that Vern Justus (manager of William Penn Fyve) used to run. The Nomads jumped at the chance. During the audition Vern came over to me and said “I represent a band that is looking for a lead guitarist”. I said “watch me”. They were interested but I told them it was a package deal and I wanted Steve Leidenthal to come along. I never liked to do things on my own and I needed the security of Steve being there. When we played together for the first time it just clicked. I remember going home that night and telling my mother I just played with the best drummer (Ron Cox) that I ever played with. Bob from the Nomads was very solid but Ron Cox was on a whole different level. Plus he sang lead (‘Blow My Mind’).

When did you and bassist Steve Leidenthal joined the band?

Steve Leidenthal has been in all the bands I was in since we were thirteen. As a matter of fact we are playing tomorrow night in Grass Valley at the Dew Drop Inn. I am looking forward to giving him the Guerssen vinyl for his kids. Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da!

What did your repertoire consist of early on?

Everything that was a hit from England. We were more into The Animals, The Rolling Stones, The Yardbirds, The Spencer Davis Group, the more R&B coming from England but we did The Who, Hollies, The Beatles because we had great harmonies with four good singers. One day we were driving to rehearsal in San Carlos in our station wagon and we heard ‘Ticket To Ride’ for the first time and just played the whole thing by ear the first time. We were very good. We did ‘Look Through Any Window’ by The Hollies with a little discussion of who would take the solo voice and the other guys said “you take the low, I’ll take the hi….”. I would always learn the chords and arrangement off the record and explain how it went. I did that in The Nomads also. In fact, I still do it.

Did you have management?

There was management before I joined and through till we disbanded in 1968. Vern Justus. He just sent me an email for my birthday. I have no idea how he remembers it. Vern told me that, “he never really had to seek out gigs because people just kept calling right from our debut gig at Eddie Kramer’s in San Carlos. It helped that Vern was from a very connected, prominent family in San Carlos Hills. The mayor lived a few houses down from his family.

You played shows with Jefferson Airplane, Paul Revere & the Raiders and Them. What are some of the most memorable shows?

We played with Jefferson Airplane at San Jose Civic (the blimp poster). The biggest gig we did was at Oakland Civic with Paul Revere & the Raiders, Them and some other local bands. Somebody says that there were at least 4000+ people there. The girls were asking our girlfriends for autographs.

Tell us about your recording of ‘Swami’ / ‘Blow My Mind’ released via Thunderbird Records.

It was recorded at Coast in San Francisco. Our producer was Rene Cardenas (The Kingston Trio connection). We had finished recording songs that we had ready and Rene came up to me and asked if I had any other song ideas. I played the swami melody, he liked it, and organized the other guys to write the words while he took notes and decided which ones went in. We recorded it in about two hours including that lead part that I played the first time. I also played the rhythm guitar throughout. We came back, did the vocals, Ron Cox put in the finger cymbals, they masted it and put it out on a little known label named Thunderbird that had little known accordion music out there. I never heard it on the radio but people told me they did. It was kind of a hit in Buffalo, New York and that is where “Pebbles” heard it and bootlegged it.

Was this a self-release or did the label actually invest in recording this single?

No.

Did you get any local airplay or press when the single was out, or was it more of a 45 to be sent to labels that might be interested in singing you?

We were signed to Trident Productions.

How did you distribute the records? Via local stores or at gigs? Did you send some to the stations and labels?

Trident took care of all that. We did nothing except get 10 copies each.

Were you inspired by psychoactive substances like LSD at the time of writing the album? Tell us about the instruments, amplifier and general equipment you had in the band.

I did not take acid until several years after the band was over. Steve Leidenthal however did. If you listen to ‘Swami’ lyrics it is really a cynical put down of all the gurus et cetera of that time.

Steve Leidenthal had a Fender Precision bass, Jack Shelton had a Gretsch guitar or some other semi acoustic, I had a Gibson ES330 with a Maestro fuzz town. Gregg Rolie had a Vox Continental and Ron Cox had a Gretsch drum set, I think. We had a Fender Dual Showman.

What followed for the band after the 7″ was out?

We went to Santa Catalina Island. We fired Vern and we crashed and burned.

When did you eventually stop playing together?

In 1968.

Was there a plan to record more back then?

No.

Are there any unreleased material or material that you didn’t record back then, but were newly written at the time?

Yes, there are two songs that are on the new CD that you can get at williampennfyve.com.

Did any member participate in any other bands back then?

Gregg Rolie got together with Carlos Santana, later formed Journey and just did a five year stint with Ringo Starr.

Steve Leidenthal and I had a group named Mad Dog that was a total clusterfuck, but we were really good. They got another guitarist into the group at the last moment before we auctioned at Winterland who had a coke dealer manager and I just quit the day of the Winterland Audition. They crashed and burned in front of Bill Graham.

What occupied your life later on?

I kept playing, but I had to learn how to feed myself so I did odd jobs like pizza cook, waiter…. All dead ends. Then I went to computer school and became a software engineer. Makes sense doesn’t it? Palo Alto, Silicon Valley. I finally moved up to San Francisco and played there for 25 years. Steve Leidenthal would play bass with me very often. I did really well.

Did you stay in touch with members?

I stayed in contact with Gregg Rolie for about ten years. Steve Leidenthal yes, Ron Cox, we played one William Penn reunion gig at the Art House in Oakland about ten years ago.

Looking back, what was the highlight of your time in the band?

It was all fun.

Which songs are you most proud of?

‘Far and Away,’ ‘Swami,’ ‘There I Go’. Actually everything on the William Penn 2023 CD that is out now.

Where and when was your most memorable gig?

All of them were great, but I used to really like playing at the Longshoremen’s Hall in San Francisco.

What are some of your favorite memories from the 60s/70s in general?

Playing with William Penn. In the 70s I was getting into the computer business and finally being able to support myself.

Looking back, who influenced your guitar playing the most and did influences change during the years?

I always loved Jeff Beck. I used to get shit around Palo Alto because I used a Fuzz Tone. You had to if you wanted to get the English sound. My early influences were Chuck Berry and Freddie King.

What currently occupies your life?

I write and release a lot of material under Mike Shapiro. I have had a few songs that have reached 750k hits. The Guerssen release really got a lot of interest in my songs. I never stopped recording. It was a great thing to have William Penn record my songs and a very lucky thing. I have come to realize that songs alone are not enough. You have to have a great performance also. Working on a new CD I had to listen to William Penn over and over again and it finally dawned on me that I was not the star of the group. The whole group has stood the test of time and generations.

Klemen Breznikar

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William Penn Fyve Official Website
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